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	<title>Comments on: For English to evolve, grammarians must die</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/</link>
	<description>The Mack Family experience.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:41:37 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	
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		<title>By: Scible Imp</title>
		<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/comment-page-3/#comment-170216</link>
		<dc:creator>Scible Imp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeigen.com/blog/?p=1329#comment-170216</guid>
		<description>Steve, 

You may want to check this out.  I highly recommend this Web site to anyone who is interested in the subject of grammar, and also to those who are incapable or unwilling to punctuate, capitalize, or otherwise attend to the needs of their sad, broken sentences.

http://www.grammaruntied.com/blog/?p=88</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, </p>
<p>You may want to check this out.  I highly recommend this Web site to anyone who is interested in the subject of grammar, and also to those who are incapable or unwilling to punctuate, capitalize, or otherwise attend to the needs of their sad, broken sentences.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.grammaruntied.com/blog/?p=88" rel="nofollow">http://www.grammaruntied.com/blog/?p=88</a></p>
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		<title>By: TheoH</title>
		<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/comment-page-3/#comment-167849</link>
		<dc:creator>TheoH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeigen.com/blog/?p=1329#comment-167849</guid>
		<description>A language wil becum mor complex as mor distinctions ar made.  It wil becum mor simple as distinctions ar dropd.  It may also becum simpler ware an adjectiv plus a simple root noun is uzed insted of a distinct unrelated-sounding root.  Amung indigenus languages in western Canada, ware I hav livd, the word /raven/ includes ravens &amp; their smaller rellativs, crows.  Insted of saying the unknoen word cro, one can say /small raven/ .  If one dusnt eeven kno the word raven but only the generic word /bird/, one can stil describe the cro with adjectivs: small blak bird.  A raven may be /big blak bird/, and a vulture /very big blak bird/.  A biologist wil prefer to hav &amp; uze the 3 root words &amp; wil further subdivide them into latin subspeecies, but the simpler root wil du for moast tribal peeple and for children, supplemented with adjectivs wen needed.  [The spelling I uze is explaind &amp; demonstrated in my website].</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A language wil becum mor complex as mor distinctions ar made.  It wil becum mor simple as distinctions ar dropd.  It may also becum simpler ware an adjectiv plus a simple root noun is uzed insted of a distinct unrelated-sounding root.  Amung indigenus languages in western Canada, ware I hav livd, the word /raven/ includes ravens &amp; their smaller rellativs, crows.  Insted of saying the unknoen word cro, one can say /small raven/ .  If one dusnt eeven kno the word raven but only the generic word /bird/, one can stil describe the cro with adjectivs: small blak bird.  A raven may be /big blak bird/, and a vulture /very big blak bird/.  A biologist wil prefer to hav &amp; uze the 3 root words &amp; wil further subdivide them into latin subspeecies, but the simpler root wil du for moast tribal peeple and for children, supplemented with adjectivs wen needed.  [The spelling I uze is explaind &amp; demonstrated in my website].</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/comment-page-3/#comment-167675</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeigen.com/blog/?p=1329#comment-167675</guid>
		<description>I agree with Rich.

Peter, by the way, I&#039;m not suggesting people change how they pronounce lose or loose. But if someone spelled it looz and loos, no complaints from me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Rich.</p>
<p>Peter, by the way, I&#8217;m not suggesting people change how they pronounce lose or loose. But if someone spelled it looz and loos, no complaints from me.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/comment-page-3/#comment-167673</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeigen.com/blog/?p=1329#comment-167673</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;How can evolution favor simplicity and regularity? There are no predators, so where’s the pruning process?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The complexity is happening in other places, like technical language.  

There are predators all around.  There are memes that are displacing other memes.  If a meme shows that one usage is more useful than a different usage, that old usage will fall to the side and become arcane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>How can evolution favor simplicity and regularity? There are no predators, so where’s the pruning process?</p></blockquote>
<p>The complexity is happening in other places, like technical language.  </p>
<p>There are predators all around.  There are memes that are displacing other memes.  If a meme shows that one usage is more useful than a different usage, that old usage will fall to the side and become arcane.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter S. Conrad</title>
		<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/comment-page-3/#comment-167670</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter S. Conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeigen.com/blog/?p=1329#comment-167670</guid>
		<description>Well I think linguistic evolution favors complexity, if anything! Language defines distinctions among things in the world. When you need more distinctions, you get more language. As the world becomes more complex, so does language. I think new words spring up faster than old ones wither away. And with more cultures influencing the direction of evolution, etymology will become an even branchier tree.

How can evolution favor simplicity and regularity? There are no predators, so where&#039;s the pruning process?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I think linguistic evolution favors complexity, if anything! Language defines distinctions among things in the world. When you need more distinctions, you get more language. As the world becomes more complex, so does language. I think new words spring up faster than old ones wither away. And with more cultures influencing the direction of evolution, etymology will become an even branchier tree.</p>
<p>How can evolution favor simplicity and regularity? There are no predators, so where&#8217;s the pruning process?</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/comment-page-2/#comment-167665</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeigen.com/blog/?p=1329#comment-167665</guid>
		<description>Peter, you have made a wonderful post, and I agree with far more than I disagree with.

You&#039;re right to pounce on the weakest point of my argument, which is the assumption that language evolution is always towards regularity, rather than more irregularity.

In a sense I&#039;ve made a circular argument, because I define spelling simplification as evolution, and I define evolution as simplification and regularity.

I need a lot more evidence to back up my claim that language evolution favors simplicity and regularity. But that&#039;s my claim.

I will indeed teach my children to use English correctly (a shifting set of rules if ever there was one), but it certainly would be much easier if the exceptions didn&#039;t outnumber the rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, you have made a wonderful post, and I agree with far more than I disagree with.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right to pounce on the weakest point of my argument, which is the assumption that language evolution is always towards regularity, rather than more irregularity.</p>
<p>In a sense I&#8217;ve made a circular argument, because I define spelling simplification as evolution, and I define evolution as simplification and regularity.</p>
<p>I need a lot more evidence to back up my claim that language evolution favors simplicity and regularity. But that&#8217;s my claim.</p>
<p>I will indeed teach my children to use English correctly (a shifting set of rules if ever there was one), but it certainly would be much easier if the exceptions didn&#8217;t outnumber the rules.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/comment-page-2/#comment-167664</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeigen.com/blog/?p=1329#comment-167664</guid>
		<description>I need to get that FF comment plug-in working -- intense discussion also going on here:
http://friendfeed.com/zeigen/eff48bff/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I need to get that FF comment plug-in working &#8212; intense discussion also going on here:<br />
<a href="http://friendfeed.com/zeigen/eff48bff/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die" rel="nofollow">http://friendfeed.com/zeigen/eff48bff/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die</a></p>
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		<title>By: Peter S. Conrad</title>
		<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/comment-page-2/#comment-167663</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter S. Conrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeigen.com/blog/?p=1329#comment-167663</guid>
		<description>As a linguist, there are a few points I agree with in your post. I would argue, though, that the inconsistencies you point out in English stem from just the kind of inevitable evolution you are encouraging. The differences between &quot;choose,&quot; &quot;lose,&quot; and &quot;nose&quot; stem from the fact that they come from different languages in the first place. 

The evolution that goes on will stem from more mixing, not less. There are now more non-native speakers of English than native speakers (non-native in that English is not their first language). Control of the evolution of the language is out of our hands. In the future, what you and I consider English will be a quaint dialect of something bigger--and by &quot;future,&quot; I don&#039;t necessarily mean after we&#039;re dead.

So, what happens to the grammarians? I can only speak for myself. I think it&#039;s important to know how things are &quot;supposed to be,&quot; and to try to figure out the rules--which are based on usage, after all (for example, it&#039;s now okay to wantonly split infinitives). Your supposition that grammarians are against linguistic evolution is false. But evolution is slow and heavy, and language has history and weight too. Remember that language is really an agreement among all the people who speak it. It takes time to change that agreement, because it takes time for those changes to propagate. It also takes tremendous momentum. So if you start pronouncing &quot;lose&quot; to rhyme with &quot;nose,&quot; you&#039;ll get a lot of &quot;huh?&quot; in response. And if everyone in California started pronouncing &quot;lose&quot; that way, it still might take a hundred years for people in New York to do the same, so say nothing of the billion English speakers elsewhere.

Now, to your point about clarity being paramount. I agree. The language is flexible enough to preserve meaning through the &quot;mistakes&quot; that are really evolution. It&#039;s really fault-tolerant. But remember that some &quot;mistakes&quot; are just, well, mistakes. Not all &quot;mistakes&quot; end up changing the language for the better (if at all). It&#039;s true that &quot;presently,&quot; which means &quot;in a moment,&quot; is changing to mean &quot;now&quot; because so many people make that mistake. But what about the use of the apostrophe in plurals? This is a mistake that people make all the time. There&#039;s no consistency. So, you let this evolution happen, and what is the benefit? What&#039;s the rule that&#039;s evolving here? Doesn&#039;t that particular evolution contribute to the inconsistency that frustrates you so? And why not use apostrophes or &quot;presently&quot; correctly, for now, among people who know what it means? In the future, if its meaning changes, the grammarians will document that fact, not try to keep the dinosaur alive.

The grammarian is your friend--trying to discover order in a tremendously challenging language, and preserve that order where it relates to meaning. Grammarians are not just arbitrary self-appointed police. And by the way, those of us who are interested in grammar, etymology, spelling, etc. have extra tools of meaning at our disposal when talking to other people who pay attention to these things. I would argue that without caring about this stuff the English language is a great tool--but caring about it makes it into music and poetry too. I didn&#039;t choose the word &#039;wantonly&#039; above by accident, but because I hoped that someone, somewhere, would enjoy it and all its little ripples of meaning, and the little implied joke there with the word &#039;split.&#039;

I think what you are really railing against is the kind of grammarian who flames. Well, that kind of person is just in it for the attention. It&#039;s okay to teach your children to use English correctly--they&#039;ll learn the real English anyway, and they&#039;ll have more tools at their disposal when they do. And it&#039;s okay to strive to be not just an efficient practitioner of the language, but an excellent one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a linguist, there are a few points I agree with in your post. I would argue, though, that the inconsistencies you point out in English stem from just the kind of inevitable evolution you are encouraging. The differences between &#8220;choose,&#8221; &#8220;lose,&#8221; and &#8220;nose&#8221; stem from the fact that they come from different languages in the first place. </p>
<p>The evolution that goes on will stem from more mixing, not less. There are now more non-native speakers of English than native speakers (non-native in that English is not their first language). Control of the evolution of the language is out of our hands. In the future, what you and I consider English will be a quaint dialect of something bigger&#8211;and by &#8220;future,&#8221; I don&#8217;t necessarily mean after we&#8217;re dead.</p>
<p>So, what happens to the grammarians? I can only speak for myself. I think it&#8217;s important to know how things are &#8220;supposed to be,&#8221; and to try to figure out the rules&#8211;which are based on usage, after all (for example, it&#8217;s now okay to wantonly split infinitives). Your supposition that grammarians are against linguistic evolution is false. But evolution is slow and heavy, and language has history and weight too. Remember that language is really an agreement among all the people who speak it. It takes time to change that agreement, because it takes time for those changes to propagate. It also takes tremendous momentum. So if you start pronouncing &#8220;lose&#8221; to rhyme with &#8220;nose,&#8221; you&#8217;ll get a lot of &#8220;huh?&#8221; in response. And if everyone in California started pronouncing &#8220;lose&#8221; that way, it still might take a hundred years for people in New York to do the same, so say nothing of the billion English speakers elsewhere.</p>
<p>Now, to your point about clarity being paramount. I agree. The language is flexible enough to preserve meaning through the &#8220;mistakes&#8221; that are really evolution. It&#8217;s really fault-tolerant. But remember that some &#8220;mistakes&#8221; are just, well, mistakes. Not all &#8220;mistakes&#8221; end up changing the language for the better (if at all). It&#8217;s true that &#8220;presently,&#8221; which means &#8220;in a moment,&#8221; is changing to mean &#8220;now&#8221; because so many people make that mistake. But what about the use of the apostrophe in plurals? This is a mistake that people make all the time. There&#8217;s no consistency. So, you let this evolution happen, and what is the benefit? What&#8217;s the rule that&#8217;s evolving here? Doesn&#8217;t that particular evolution contribute to the inconsistency that frustrates you so? And why not use apostrophes or &#8220;presently&#8221; correctly, for now, among people who know what it means? In the future, if its meaning changes, the grammarians will document that fact, not try to keep the dinosaur alive.</p>
<p>The grammarian is your friend&#8211;trying to discover order in a tremendously challenging language, and preserve that order where it relates to meaning. Grammarians are not just arbitrary self-appointed police. And by the way, those of us who are interested in grammar, etymology, spelling, etc. have extra tools of meaning at our disposal when talking to other people who pay attention to these things. I would argue that without caring about this stuff the English language is a great tool&#8211;but caring about it makes it into music and poetry too. I didn&#8217;t choose the word &#8216;wantonly&#8217; above by accident, but because I hoped that someone, somewhere, would enjoy it and all its little ripples of meaning, and the little implied joke there with the word &#8217;split.&#8217;</p>
<p>I think what you are really railing against is the kind of grammarian who flames. Well, that kind of person is just in it for the attention. It&#8217;s okay to teach your children to use English correctly&#8211;they&#8217;ll learn the real English anyway, and they&#8217;ll have more tools at their disposal when they do. And it&#8217;s okay to strive to be not just an efficient practitioner of the language, but an excellent one.</p>
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		<title>By: Louis Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/comment-page-1/#comment-167662</link>
		<dc:creator>Louis Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeigen.com/blog/?p=1329#comment-167662</guid>
		<description>Sounds like a loosing proposition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like a loosing proposition.</p>
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		<title>By: DaveZatz</title>
		<link>http://www.zeigen.com/blog/2009/07/for-english-to-evolve-grammarians-must-die/comment-page-1/#comment-167652</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveZatz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zeigen.com/blog/?p=1329#comment-167652</guid>
		<description>[my standard will now be, “Is the intent clear?”]

I approve. :) ...as someone with no &quot;journalism&quot; training, no linguistics degree, who likes random hyphens, ellipses, and starting sentences with &quot;And&quot;. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[my standard will now be, “Is the intent clear?”]</p>
<p>I approve. <img src='http://www.zeigen.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  &#8230;as someone with no &#8220;journalism&#8221; training, no linguistics degree, who likes random hyphens, ellipses, and starting sentences with &#8220;And&#8221;. <img src='http://www.zeigen.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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